Haste and mastery bad for fury warriors
First I want to start out saying that this is not a QQ thread, i'm only posting this to raise awareness for anyone that is not aware of how stats are stacking up for fury warriors. This post is not directed at anyone in particular, it's meant for players and devs alike. I also am not in beta, but at the same time I don't see how these issues could be resolved at 85, if anything I would think the difference would just get larger.
In a nutshell, haste and mastery are vastly inferior to crit and hit. I have done many hours of testing on PTR and i'm not wrong about this. This is how I arrived at this conclusion. I first started off with white damage tests. I tested for 30 minutes at a time just smacking a dummy. The main difference between all these tests, is reforging. Since gems have been very hard to get on the PTR. I would reforge as much as I possibly could into one stat. Most of my gear has crit and haste on it, so when I could reforge either one (such as when testing mastery and hit) I made sure to test every combination.
I found that hit, was the best white damage increase, followed by crit. Though the difference between hit and crit, was less than 1%, very close. That could have very easily just been RNG, would like to do some longer tests to make sure.
It wasn't till I started testing haste and mastery that things got interesting. The drop in white damage with haste vs hit and crit, was easily enough to notice. It still wasn't a ton, maybe 3% less than when I was stacking crit.
Mastery performed by far the worst in the white damage tests. In every test I did, it was easily 15% lower than when I was stacking any other stat. Just for refrence I did not have an insignificant amount of mastery, 580 rating at level 80.
These tests don't really mean much though, they were just to get an idea of how much each stat contributes to white damage. The next step was to do full damage tests.
I repeated every single one of these tests, stacking each different stat, while giving up other stats via reforging, and once again I tested every single combination. Keep in mind, every one of these tests was self buffed only. No outside raid buffs of any kind.
Crit performed far and away the best. Every single time I reforged away from crit, it was easily 15% or more less dps, depending on which stat I gained through reforging. What was working particularly well, was when I was testing max crit, with high hit. My rage generation seemed like it was just right. This had me at about 52% crit and 17% hit. I was able to hit heroic strike a lot, but not every CD. And I never got rage starved, but I also never capped out on rage. The rage income was very steady and consistent, and if I ever did get low and in danger of being starved, a quick battle shout kept things flowing.
Stacking hit all the way up to the hardcap performed in a similar manner. It was just a lot less output, because I reforged every piece of gear that I could, even my trinkets, for more hit. My output was very low in general when I was stacking hit with high haste. Having max hit and high crit however, wasn't too big of a drop off compared to having max crit and high hit.
Stacking haste was just bad, no way around it. When I stacked haste, regardless of how I did it, my dps was significantly lower than when I was stacking crit and hit. What was interesting though, was when I had as much haste as possible, (over 1000) but still very high crit. I don't think that it was so much that the output was terrible, so much as it was making the rotation more difficult. It felt impossible to manage my rage. My rage gen was the definition of spiky. There were times, when I could hit heroic strike every CD for 20 seconds straight, and still maintain my rotation. Yet there were other times when I didn't even touch heroic strike, and I was sitting there with BT, RB, and bloodsurge all waiting to be used, but without the rage to do so.
I don't really have a whole lot to say about mastery, other than it consistently performed the worst of all. Lacking massive amount of hit and haste, the rage gen just felt low all the time. The only time it did good dps was during death wish, and as soon as that dropped off, dps dropped through the floor.
In conclusion, i'm worried that warriors are just going to ignore haste and mastery in their current incarnations. I only see the value of crit going up at 85, since our combat ratings are all going to go down, if I know how crit works, that's going to make its value spike up because we will have less of it. We also don't have deep wounds as fury yet, which in the past has been as much as 25% of our damage. I also think colossus smash will favor crit, since it's such a small window of opportunity I would think you'd want as many crits as possible to line up in that 6 seconds. If things were to go live right this second, and I had a raid in the next 15 minutes, I would reforge all my haste to hit, and just ignore mastery completely. As of right now for me, they're both junk stats. Just like hit over the special cap in wrath, and I know that's not a good thing.
In a nutshell, haste and mastery are vastly inferior to crit and hit. I have done many hours of testing on PTR and i'm not wrong about this. This is how I arrived at this conclusion. I first started off with white damage tests. I tested for 30 minutes at a time just smacking a dummy. The main difference between all these tests, is reforging. Since gems have been very hard to get on the PTR. I would reforge as much as I possibly could into one stat. Most of my gear has crit and haste on it, so when I could reforge either one (such as when testing mastery and hit) I made sure to test every combination.
I found that hit, was the best white damage increase, followed by crit. Though the difference between hit and crit, was less than 1%, very close. That could have very easily just been RNG, would like to do some longer tests to make sure.
It wasn't till I started testing haste and mastery that things got interesting. The drop in white damage with haste vs hit and crit, was easily enough to notice. It still wasn't a ton, maybe 3% less than when I was stacking crit.
Mastery performed by far the worst in the white damage tests. In every test I did, it was easily 15% lower than when I was stacking any other stat. Just for refrence I did not have an insignificant amount of mastery, 580 rating at level 80.
These tests don't really mean much though, they were just to get an idea of how much each stat contributes to white damage. The next step was to do full damage tests.
I repeated every single one of these tests, stacking each different stat, while giving up other stats via reforging, and once again I tested every single combination. Keep in mind, every one of these tests was self buffed only. No outside raid buffs of any kind.
Crit performed far and away the best. Every single time I reforged away from crit, it was easily 15% or more less dps, depending on which stat I gained through reforging. What was working particularly well, was when I was testing max crit, with high hit. My rage generation seemed like it was just right. This had me at about 52% crit and 17% hit. I was able to hit heroic strike a lot, but not every CD. And I never got rage starved, but I also never capped out on rage. The rage income was very steady and consistent, and if I ever did get low and in danger of being starved, a quick battle shout kept things flowing.
Stacking hit all the way up to the hardcap performed in a similar manner. It was just a lot less output, because I reforged every piece of gear that I could, even my trinkets, for more hit. My output was very low in general when I was stacking hit with high haste. Having max hit and high crit however, wasn't too big of a drop off compared to having max crit and high hit.
Stacking haste was just bad, no way around it. When I stacked haste, regardless of how I did it, my dps was significantly lower than when I was stacking crit and hit. What was interesting though, was when I had as much haste as possible, (over 1000) but still very high crit. I don't think that it was so much that the output was terrible, so much as it was making the rotation more difficult. It felt impossible to manage my rage. My rage gen was the definition of spiky. There were times, when I could hit heroic strike every CD for 20 seconds straight, and still maintain my rotation. Yet there were other times when I didn't even touch heroic strike, and I was sitting there with BT, RB, and bloodsurge all waiting to be used, but without the rage to do so.
I don't really have a whole lot to say about mastery, other than it consistently performed the worst of all. Lacking massive amount of hit and haste, the rage gen just felt low all the time. The only time it did good dps was during death wish, and as soon as that dropped off, dps dropped through the floor.
In conclusion, i'm worried that warriors are just going to ignore haste and mastery in their current incarnations. I only see the value of crit going up at 85, since our combat ratings are all going to go down, if I know how crit works, that's going to make its value spike up because we will have less of it. We also don't have deep wounds as fury yet, which in the past has been as much as 25% of our damage. I also think colossus smash will favor crit, since it's such a small window of opportunity I would think you'd want as many crits as possible to line up in that 6 seconds. If things were to go live right this second, and I had a raid in the next 15 minutes, I would reforge all my haste to hit, and just ignore mastery completely. As of right now for me, they're both junk stats. Just like hit over the special cap in wrath, and I know that's not a good thing.
When you have to say "it's not a QQ thread", it's a QQ thread.
Been saying this for the last 2-3 months, glad to have another warrior saying the same things.
Q u o t e:
When you have to say "it's not a QQ thread", it's a QQ thread.
You have a strange idea of what QQ is. QQ would be 'omg my fury damage is only 5kdps from my 20k dps in ICC on live, warriors are doomed!', which would be a true statement, but also QQ.
This thread has specific feedback regarding certain stats being absolute crap for us, that can be addressed. There is a large difference between feedback and QQ, you don't seem to understand where that line is.
Q u o t e:
When you have to say "it's not a QQ thread", it's a QQ thread.
Wrong, I said that because other players have a tendancy to QQ, and that is my way of saying that it's not welcome in this thread.
Also, if you're posting, please try to remain on topic.
I think I'll just fish for 2 months.
The Fury Mastery is affected by Hit, Haste, and even Crit.
Ret's Mastery for example is only affected by Haste after the Hit cap has been achieved.
Because Fury DW's it never reaches the hard cap on Hit so adding more Hit increases the uptime on Enrage (i.e. the Mastery bonus). Adding Haste increases number of hits, which again, increases uptime on Enrage and the Mastery. Throw in Crit to maintain uptime on Flurry which increases Haste which adds more hits which increases uptime on Enrage and Mastery.
If Fury is not meant to have 100% uptime on Enrage then stats which increase that uptime are going to be more benefitial than Mastery itself.
Besides being the most dependant Mastery (thus making Mastery itself on gear rather useless) it also creates massive fluxuation in DPS. And as your tests have shown, neglecting the other stats which increase Enrage uptime makes this fluxuation even greater as you'll do more dmg while enraged but less often.
i.e. I think they'd be better off balancing around nearly 100% uptime on Enrage. This way hit & haste (and crit through Flurry) have less of an impact on making the Mastery useful. Value of hit, haste, & crit go down relative to Mastery which goes up. Or just pick a new Mastery, because then it's pretty boring and feels like a flat dmg increase.
Ret's Mastery for example is only affected by Haste after the Hit cap has been achieved.
Because Fury DW's it never reaches the hard cap on Hit so adding more Hit increases the uptime on Enrage (i.e. the Mastery bonus). Adding Haste increases number of hits, which again, increases uptime on Enrage and the Mastery. Throw in Crit to maintain uptime on Flurry which increases Haste which adds more hits which increases uptime on Enrage and Mastery.
If Fury is not meant to have 100% uptime on Enrage then stats which increase that uptime are going to be more benefitial than Mastery itself.
Besides being the most dependant Mastery (thus making Mastery itself on gear rather useless) it also creates massive fluxuation in DPS. And as your tests have shown, neglecting the other stats which increase Enrage uptime makes this fluxuation even greater as you'll do more dmg while enraged but less often.
i.e. I think they'd be better off balancing around nearly 100% uptime on Enrage. This way hit & haste (and crit through Flurry) have less of an impact on making the Mastery useful. Value of hit, haste, & crit go down relative to Mastery which goes up. Or just pick a new Mastery, because then it's pretty boring and feels like a flat dmg increase.
Hit will always be no. 1
Could this be a case of crit scaling rage gen better than it should? (again.. though 53% crit will be near impossible at 85)
Since about 20-30% crit will be realistic, what are your results if you stop stacking crit at say 25% and then experiment with haste vs. mastery.
Could this be a case of crit scaling rage gen better than it should? (again.. though 53% crit will be near impossible at 85)
Since about 20-30% crit will be realistic, what are your results if you stop stacking crit at say 25% and then experiment with haste vs. mastery.
Q u o t e:
Hit will always be no. 1
Could this be a case of crit scaling rage gen better than it should? (again.. though 53% crit will be near impossible at 85)
Since about 20-30% crit will be realistic, what are your results if you stop stacking crit at say 25% and then experiment with haste vs. mastery.
I don't believe crits generate extra rage anymore.
Q u o t e:
The Fury Mastery is affected by Hit, Haste, and even Crit.
Ret's Mastery for example is only affected by Haste after the Hit cap has been achieved.
Because Fury DW's it never reaches the hard cap on Hit so adding more Hit increases the uptime on Enrage (i.e. the Mastery bonus). Adding Haste increases number of hits, which again, increases uptime on Enrage and the Mastery. Throw in Crit to maintain uptime on Flurry which increases Haste which adds more hits which increases uptime on Enrage and Mastery.
If Fury is not meant to have 100% uptime on Enrage then stats which increase that uptime are going to be more benefitial than Mastery itself.
Besides being the most dependant Mastery (thus making Mastery itself on gear rather useless) it also creates massive fluxuation in DPS. And as your tests have shown, neglecting the other stats which increase Enrage uptime makes this fluxuation even greater as you'll do more dmg while enraged but less often.
i.e. I think they'd be better off balancing around nearly 100% uptime on Enrage. This way hit & haste (and crit through Flurry) have less of an impact on making the Mastery useful. Value of hit, haste, & crit go down relative to Mastery which goes up. Or just pick a new Mastery, because then it's pretty boring and feels like a flat dmg increase.
I agree with this. Mastery scaling was nerfed because they didn't like the idea of a 30% enrage with a 60% deathwish. I think the missing part here is still considering non-enraged damage baseline. Enrage uptime should be high enough that the enraged is more your normal state, while periods where you're not enraged should be relatively lower, and periods where you're under death wish are relatively higher.
ie instead of seeing it as 100%, 130% enrage, 160% death wish. Look at it as 100% while enraged, 77% while not enraged, and 123% while under the effect of death wish. It's actually a lot more reasonable from that perspective, even though the numbers seem large.
The nerfed mastery scaling came in because of big numbers, but in truth those big numbers are needed to match the scaling of crit. I think a scenario where you are enraged 50% of the time, and under death wish 25%, and non-enraged for the other 25% is the way to go. Of course, making it a 100% enrage would be nice too, but blizz still seems pretty adamant against that.
I'd also like to see mastery scale recklessness, that would give another area to give some bonus to mastery while not needing to inflate numbers quite so much, and devalue crit slightly.
I know what your saying as a warrior. However, I don't remember blizz ever saying haste and mastery is going to be the end all be all stat. With that knowledge it does seem like a strange thread to make. I'm not sure I understand what your trying to accomplish by pointing this out.
However, if strength as a stat was weaker than say hit or crit, that would be a very valid complaint. In this case, haste and mastery will be worth more as your hit and crit increase. It is not uncommon for one stat to be worth alot more than another and then switch roles later in the expansion and tiers of gear.
However, if strength as a stat was weaker than say hit or crit, that would be a very valid complaint. In this case, haste and mastery will be worth more as your hit and crit increase. It is not uncommon for one stat to be worth alot more than another and then switch roles later in the expansion and tiers of gear.
Q u o t e:
I don't believe crits generate extra rage anymore.
I know GC said it was an option. Did they go through with it?
Is the extra rage the OP is experiencing purely from the faster swings + higher flurry uptime? Or are crits still generating extra rage?
If the OP is swimming in rage due to higher flurry uptime, then Flurry is probably in need of a tweak (more swings / less haste) so that it doesn't overemphasize crits...
Either way, the OP isn't really doing a realistic test. 53% crit is a little absurd with 85 Cata combat rating requirements. 15000 attack power and 2000 crit would make for better damage than 15000 attack power and 2000 haste. But its impossible so who cares?
Q u o t e:
I don't believe crits generate extra rage anymore.
They don't, but it provides flurry uptime, which is a significant rage generation boost, particularly when you're looking at level 85 ratings where you're not going to have anywhere near 100% flurry uptime like we do now.
The difference between stacking hit/crit and haste/mastery is staggering. Haste is just a bad stat, much like it is now, but mastery is a complete disaster.
Q u o t e:
I know what your saying as a warrior. However, I don't remember blizz ever saying haste and mastery is going to be the end all be all stat. With that knowledge it does seem like a strange thread to make. I'm not sure I understand what your trying to accomplish by pointing this out.
I believe the OP's main point was that not only are haste and mastery the be-all and end-all stat, they actually seem to be stats to avoid if possible. While I'm sure Blizzard doesn't want warriors stacking Mastery and haste to the detriment of everything else, I'm also sure they don't want warriors doing everything they can to avoid Mastery and haste.
haste still seems really bad for arms too
but what exactly can one expect when the only extra milage you get from it is more rage that in PVE is converted into an ability that scales inversely with haste
I'm liking mastery for PVP, not sure how the math works out regarding it in PVE, but extra burst + colossus smash procs is nice
but what exactly can one expect when the only extra milage you get from it is more rage that in PVE is converted into an ability that scales inversely with haste
I'm liking mastery for PVP, not sure how the math works out regarding it in PVE, but extra burst + colossus smash procs is nice
Q u o t e:
I believe the OP's main point was that not only are haste and mastery the be-all and end-all stat, they actually seem to be stats to avoid if possible. While I'm sure Blizzard doesn't want warriors stacking Mastery and haste to the detriment of everything else, I'm also sure they don't want warriors doing everything they can to avoid Mastery and haste.
So you guys are suggesting that we homoginize stats to all be the same? You want haste to scale the same way as hit? Why bother making them different stats then?
Q u o t e:
So you guys are suggesting that we homoginize stats to all be the same? You want haste to scale the same way as hit? Why bother making them different stats then?
Not the same, but to a point where reforging say T12 with Hit & Mastery to Hit/Mastery/Crit isn't still massively inferior to T11 with Crit & Hit etc.
I think they want to avoid a situation like Armor Penetration now. Prime for some classes but nearly worthless for others. They want to design armor for all dps plate specs, not 1 piece for Ret, 1 piece for Fury, 1 piece for Unholy, etc. Haste and Mastery are looking pretty good for Ret in PvE (along with Crit & Hit of course) but as this thread points out, looks horrible for Fury. So all Haste & Mastery pieces default to Ret and Crit & Hit default to Fury? Just... no... not again..
Q u o t e:
Not the same, but to a point where reforging say T12 with Hit & Mastery to Hit/Mastery/Crit isn't still massively inferior to T11 with Crit & Hit etc.
I think they want to avoid a situation like Armor Penetration now. Prime for some classes but nearly worthless for others. They want to design armor for all dps plate specs, not 1 piece for Ret, 1 piece for Fury, 1 piece for Unholy, etc. Haste and Mastery are looking pretty good for Ret in PvE (along with Crit & Hit of course) but as this thread points out, looks horrible for Fury. So all Haste & Mastery pieces default to Ret and Crit & Hit default to Fury? Just... no... not again..
I respectfully disagree. I believe having different classes being affected by stats in different ways is a good thing. I would rather see a piece of gear go to one class or another than to get de'd every time, or even worse the gear not even exist at all. Plus you gotta remember the information in this thread is based on ptr and not even level 85 information. I think cata is going to have pretty extreme scaling gear wise especially in later tiers.
Q u o t e:
So you guys are suggesting that we homoginize stats to all be the same? You want haste to scale the same way as hit? Why bother making them different stats then?
No, they're suggesting that the stats be made better. There's a goddamn continuum of values between terrible and exactly-as-good-as Crit/Hit.
Also, it seems the massive rating decay at 85 has crippled the value of ratings in comparison to base stats. Strength is way better than anything else, and that encourages a type of gearing that Blizzard dislikes (as in, always go for the highest ilvl item, because gains in Strength trump everything else). This worries me.
This thread was on the old WoW forums that have since been closed.
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